Note: Here is a copy of an interview of North Carolina School of Science and Mathematics teacher Carol O’Dell. The interview was part of the NBC 17 program “At Issue” and was conducted by moderator Donald Jones and Donna Martinez of the John Locke Foundation. The topic of the interview was O’Dell’s assertions that NCSSM is declining academically. O’Dell was informed by school administrators that her contract would not be renewed mainly because she has been critical of the school’s apparent academic decline. NCSSM officials declined a request by NBC 17 to appear on the program. The interviewed aired December 19, 2004.
Donald Jones: We are back “At Issue” and we are talking about the North Carolina School of Science and Math in Durham. The state-funded school for 11th and 12th graders has a long record of accomplishments. Its graduates have been admitted to many prestigious universities, but recently its faculty council president was told her teaching contract will not be renewed. Is it because she’s been outspoken about what she says are declining standards at the school? Joining us today is Carol O’Dell, that is Dr. O’Dell, the teacher in question. We also invited representatives from the school. They declined and sent this statement instead. (Reading statement) “The North Carolina School of Science and Mathematics is a national leader in science, math, and technology education at the high school level. Because the school respects the privacy and due process rights of every employee the school cannot comment on personnel matters.” But, as we said, Dr. Carol O’Dell is joining us to talk about the issue, Donna.
Donna Martinez: Dr. O’Dell, now you contend that the School of Science and Math is lowering its academic standards. Why do you make that contention? Based on what evidence?
Carol O’Dell: Well, faculty have for several years been concerned about the difficulty of getting kids to learn some of our classes, the push to get higher grades. I began to look at the SAT data simply because I was being pressured to give more A’s and B’s. I found myself in a situation where juniors coming into us were shocked, I guess, at the level of expectations of the mathematics program and I had a lot of C’s at the midterm. The administration did not approve of that. I found then that other faculty members were in the same boat and I began to look at SAT data and the distribution of our scores.
Martinez: So you’re saying specifically then that the students that are being admitted recently have lower SAT scores than the students who used to be admitted. Is that the nut here?
O’Dell: Well, basically, there has been a decline in our exit SAT scores. And the initial report that I proposed or that I distributed on campus, showed that decline in SAT’s. I used two sources of data; the North Carolina department of public instruction data and in-house profile data. And both showed the same trend. The profile data was supposed to be showing us the incoming scores; the department of public instruction data shows us the outgoing scores. And both are declining.
Martinez: Why would the school do that? I mean this is certainly set up to be a school of excellence in science and mathematics. What do you think is behind that?
O’Dell: Well, the administration claims that it’s because the school back in 1995 was forced to more formally admit from each congressional district. The law says, as I’ve read it, that the goal of the school is to admit the best students from each congressional district. Our admissions office and our administration have interpreted that to mean students with potential from each congressional district, not necessarily the best students. So, if you look at our scores in general, we used to have a lot at the high end and a few at the lower end. The center of that distribution has moved if you graph the whole thing. The center has moved toward the lower end and we have a few really high end scores. So, we’re still getting some very good students, but the center of the distribution has indeed moved several points in fact.
Jones: And just for a little history quickly, the school was set up and it’s students from across North Carolina that are brought in. Are they scoped out or are the students made aware of it by their local high schools in the state saying “you could be an option; this could be an option for you because your grades are doing well”? And then they apply for the school.
O’Dell: The school…We have an admissions process and we actually send out recruiters and try to visit every high school. We try to focus on some more than others. We have been trying to focus on congressional district one because for a long time we had not enough students from congressional district one.
Martinez: That’s the northeastern part of the state?
O’Dell: Right.
Martinez: You also mentioned grade inflation. Are you contending that you have been pressured to give out grades that students haven’t earned?
O’Dell: Well, I’m… I will tell you flatly that not only have I been encouraged to give higher grades, but several other faculty members have as well.
Martinez: Have you been encouraged to do that or have you been forced to do that?
O’Dell: Well, I have not done it. And I think that there have been some repercussions here.
Jones: We read the statement and the school said that they could not comment because of personnel matters.
O’Dell: Right.
Jones: I don’t know whether or not you can say. Have you been given any reasoning to why your contract has not been renewed?
O’Dell: Yah, and the two things that are really shocking to me are, the first reason because I persisted in doing research reports and showing those reports internally. I did not send them to the media. I sent them to faculty, staff, people on committees that would be looking at admissions task forces, school improvement groups, etc. And because my grades are not high enough.
Martinez: Now, as I understand it as well, the school has told you that there were a lot of parents who were complaining about your classes and that you got a high number of students who were trying to get out of your classes. Indeed, is that what the school has told you and is that what’s been happening?
O’Dell: That statement is in their letter and that has not been my experience. I think that you’ll find that every teacher has a complaint once in a while, and if, you know, you get two or three a year, to me that’s not a large number when you’re working in a high demand environment.
Jones: And to its credit. We’ve certainly seen the successful stories. We at NBC-17 last week interviewed a couple of girls that won a very large scholarship for science research in breast cancer research.
O’Dell: A couple of my students in fact. I’m not about to tell you that we did not continue to get some very good students. We sent, I think, five teams, or maybe six teams down to Atlanta. And two individuals…They all placed. We have a fifth place winner at the national level and we had the very top team. All of those winners are in one or the other of my classes this year. This year I have topics classes which are the higher level classes. I have had the non-topics classes and that’s where the big complaints about my grades arose.
Martinez: Well, as we wind down here, just, in a nutshell, can you tell us really why it is you think it is your contract is not being renewed?
O’Dell: Well, I think their first statement in the letter was: To a person in academics, you’ve done research. We don’t think you should have done this kind of research. We didn’t approve it. We don’t like it.
It’s the governance…I think the governance of the school allowed that to happen because all the decisions were left in the hands of one person.
Jones: One last thing…after this happens, where do you go from here?
O’Dell: Well, there is an appeals process. I don’t think it’s substantive because you appeal the decision back to President Boarman. You can eventually appeal to the board of trustees. My hope is to get the issue of the governance structure of the school on the table so that faculty do have a role to play in academic decisions.
Jones: Dr. Carol O’Dell, we thank you very much for joining us.
O’Dell: Thank you.